I agree but we must be cautious with who gets to decide what “living and active” means. All revelation was complete with the Apostolic age. Nothing new can be added, changed etc. or we get chaos aka heresies. This may be a tangent but all ecumenical discussions ultimately end up with the question of “Authority”. Without accepting authority for our scriptural interpretations, we end up talking past each other.
Yes, Faith is come by hearing the word that was written, there was a gap from the apostolic age to when the canon of the NT was finalized that the written word was either not available yet or incomplete. As St Paul said we hold fast to was we learned both aural or written 2nd Thessalonians. Which is how the Faith spread in those days, through aural Tradition. Either way a conscience change must happen to accept what was heard. To change one’s affiliation, as it were, would necessarily mean an open change in conduct and attitude. If I was a Bears fan and became a Jets fan, I’d let people know that by my wearing of Jets paraphernalia. Crude example but you get the point. And I think we’re on the same page here.
The message is heard through the word. Your previous post implies you think only attending church and audibly hearing the word is the only way to obtain faith. But here its clear the message us heard through the word. So it can be read too. Hebrews 12 says the word is living and active.
There are various example in the NT re: faith and works. Christs own words should suffice, MT 25:31-46. And James 2:24 directly refutes “Faith alone.” Understand that my point is not works alone, works through Faith.
Protestants always stop reading at verse 9. Verse 10 is pretty important.
What happens to the person who does not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us? (hint: they go off the narrow path and onto the wide path)
Faith alone contradicts the teaching of Christ about walking the narrow path.
Nope, I read verse 10, it's a great verse. And I still disagree with you.
Verse 10 states that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to DO good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
But, back to verse 8 and 9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Pretty clear that we're saved by grace through faith, not our own doing.
Our works show our love for God, and we're to do the works he prepared in advance for us to do, but we're not saved by them.
What works did the thief on the cross do? He admitted he was a criminal being punished for his deeds, yet Jesus said he'd be with him in paradise. I believe he was saved by his faith in Jesus, not his good deeds:
Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[a] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
1. We are saved by faith, but not by faith alone, as Scripture literally and explicitly says. Protestants keep trying to insert that word into Scripture
2. The Good Thief performed several good works, including publicly proclaiming the kingship of Christ, rebuking a sinner, confessing his guilt and comforting Our Lord at His most painful hours. That's quite a lot of good works.
Every single Protestant believes their interpretation of Scripture is infallible
Hello Habitual Linestepper! I'm glad you're willing to keep the conversation going, thank you for your reply. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
So, to be clear, I could live a sinful life (as the thief on the cross presumably did (since he was admitting he was receiving the due reward of [his] deeds)), and then perform a mere 4 works (from the list you cited) and be saved?
How many good works are required to be saved? How are they measured? By what standard?
I don't claim my interpretation of Scripture is infallible--I read the word, and go to Bible studies, talk with others about scripture and to church to learn and grow in my understanding. I'm open to teaching, but it needs to be based on His word.
Please offer some Bible verses to show me where I've misunderstood. I'd be happy to read and discuss them.
For clarification, Catholics believe in Faith through works. Not Faith alone. The devil doesn’t have to believe in Christ, he knows He exists and is still damned. “Not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved”. Or the hand maidens with the oil, they didn’t keep their lamps full. It wasn’t that they didn’t believe, they did believe but the world was more important.
Hi Andy, I'm curious about "Faith through works". I'm not sure I've heard of that concept before.
Does it mean Faith is obtained through works? Or does it mean Faith is demonstrated through works?
I agree there is certainly more than "believing" to be saved. We read of belief leading to eternal life in John 3:16 and John 3:31, but passages such as James 2:19 ("You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!") clearly indicate that a simple belief (merely an intellectual assertion that Jesus exists, or believe His claims about himself to be true) don't lead to salvation.
I never understood how one could be saved through “Faith alone” as the only requirement. As I re-catechised myself I realized it was dumb but worse, anti-scriptural. I DID NOT, however, consider the parable of the True Vine. Excellent!
Hi Andy. I encourage you to re-read John 15. Verse 2 is far different from verse 6. In verse 2 Jesus is talking about a believer ("in me") while verse 6 is talking about one who "does not abide in me", meaning an unbeliever. It is only the person in verse 6 who is thrown into the fire.
John 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
verse 6 -- the one who doesn't abide in Jesus is the one thrown into the fire.
I agree but we must be cautious with who gets to decide what “living and active” means. All revelation was complete with the Apostolic age. Nothing new can be added, changed etc. or we get chaos aka heresies. This may be a tangent but all ecumenical discussions ultimately end up with the question of “Authority”. Without accepting authority for our scriptural interpretations, we end up talking past each other.
Yes, Faith is come by hearing the word that was written, there was a gap from the apostolic age to when the canon of the NT was finalized that the written word was either not available yet or incomplete. As St Paul said we hold fast to was we learned both aural or written 2nd Thessalonians. Which is how the Faith spread in those days, through aural Tradition. Either way a conscience change must happen to accept what was heard. To change one’s affiliation, as it were, would necessarily mean an open change in conduct and attitude. If I was a Bears fan and became a Jets fan, I’d let people know that by my wearing of Jets paraphernalia. Crude example but you get the point. And I think we’re on the same page here.
Yep.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Romans 10:17 NIV
https://romans.bible/romans-10-17
The message is heard through the word. Your previous post implies you think only attending church and audibly hearing the word is the only way to obtain faith. But here its clear the message us heard through the word. So it can be read too. Hebrews 12 says the word is living and active.
There are various example in the NT re: faith and works. Christs own words should suffice, MT 25:31-46. And James 2:24 directly refutes “Faith alone.” Understand that my point is not works alone, works through Faith.
Perhaps you should go read Ephesians 2:8-9. It will pretty much refute your whole premise.
Protestants always stop reading at verse 9. Verse 10 is pretty important.
What happens to the person who does not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us? (hint: they go off the narrow path and onto the wide path)
Faith alone contradicts the teaching of Christ about walking the narrow path.
Nope, I read verse 10, it's a great verse. And I still disagree with you.
Verse 10 states that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to DO good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
But, back to verse 8 and 9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Pretty clear that we're saved by grace through faith, not our own doing.
Our works show our love for God, and we're to do the works he prepared in advance for us to do, but we're not saved by them.
What works did the thief on the cross do? He admitted he was a criminal being punished for his deeds, yet Jesus said he'd be with him in paradise. I believe he was saved by his faith in Jesus, not his good deeds:
Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[a] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
1. We are saved by faith, but not by faith alone, as Scripture literally and explicitly says. Protestants keep trying to insert that word into Scripture
2. The Good Thief performed several good works, including publicly proclaiming the kingship of Christ, rebuking a sinner, confessing his guilt and comforting Our Lord at His most painful hours. That's quite a lot of good works.
Every single Protestant believes their interpretation of Scripture is infallible
Hello Habitual Linestepper! I'm glad you're willing to keep the conversation going, thank you for your reply. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
So, to be clear, I could live a sinful life (as the thief on the cross presumably did (since he was admitting he was receiving the due reward of [his] deeds)), and then perform a mere 4 works (from the list you cited) and be saved?
How many good works are required to be saved? How are they measured? By what standard?
I don't claim my interpretation of Scripture is infallible--I read the word, and go to Bible studies, talk with others about scripture and to church to learn and grow in my understanding. I'm open to teaching, but it needs to be based on His word.
Please offer some Bible verses to show me where I've misunderstood. I'd be happy to read and discuss them.
For clarification, Catholics believe in Faith through works. Not Faith alone. The devil doesn’t have to believe in Christ, he knows He exists and is still damned. “Not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved”. Or the hand maidens with the oil, they didn’t keep their lamps full. It wasn’t that they didn’t believe, they did believe but the world was more important.
Hi Andy, I'm curious about "Faith through works". I'm not sure I've heard of that concept before.
Does it mean Faith is obtained through works? Or does it mean Faith is demonstrated through works?
I agree there is certainly more than "believing" to be saved. We read of belief leading to eternal life in John 3:16 and John 3:31, but passages such as James 2:19 ("You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!") clearly indicate that a simple belief (merely an intellectual assertion that Jesus exists, or believe His claims about himself to be true) don't lead to salvation.
I never understood how one could be saved through “Faith alone” as the only requirement. As I re-catechised myself I realized it was dumb but worse, anti-scriptural. I DID NOT, however, consider the parable of the True Vine. Excellent!
Hi Andy,
Can you point me to a verse to show how it's anti-scriptural?
Hi Andy. I encourage you to re-read John 15. Verse 2 is far different from verse 6. In verse 2 Jesus is talking about a believer ("in me") while verse 6 is talking about one who "does not abide in me", meaning an unbeliever. It is only the person in verse 6 who is thrown into the fire.
Weird, you are objectively wrong about verse 2
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
The branch is "in me" and it is being cut off. You are wrong in your claim and your theology is wrong
So, which branch is thrown into the fire?
The branch that is in Christ which doesn't produce fruit.
The branch is in Christ and you were wrong about that. Can you admit your were objectively wrong?
Again, let's go to what the word says:
John 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
verse 6 -- the one who doesn't abide in Jesus is the one thrown into the fire.
The verse says the branch is in Him. You want to ignore this part because it destroys your personal theology.
Just admit that you are fallible and that your personal theology is in error. Become Christian and leave your Protestantism.