Debate is not my strong suit. I will have one last go at this. Just as God did not "cut" the covenant with Abram (before the name change) in Genesis 12, He does not covenant with us for salvation. Abram cut the animals in two, but God Himself passed through the pieces, stating thereby that He would bear the punishment if the covenant were broken. Romans 4: 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Christ entered the Holy of Holies on our behalf, He said "It is finished". In the eyes of God we are holy, justified and righteous because of Christ's atonement. Nothing else is lacking. If good works could earn salvation, why did Christ have to suffer an excruciating death?
Now with all that being said . . . the good tree produces good fruit, not because it wants to become a good tree, but because it is a good tree. Because God is God, and we are not, we believe that our salvation rests on the perfect work of Christ, and we work as if it depends on us. How can we (being what we are) add anything to His perfect sacrifice? His Spirit works mightily within us to transform us into His image.
1. No worries on your or my ability to debate. Trust isn't dependent upon debate. It remains true even if we lose a debate.
2. God absolutely does covenant with us for our salvation. That's what the New Covenant is. That's why the New Covenant is the Blood of Christ.
3. No one says that works will save us. What we are saying is that good works are one of the conditions we must fulfill in the New Covenant that Christ offers to us. They aren't optional and anyone who wishes to be saved, must perform good works. Christ wasn't joking in the parables of the True Vine, Unforgiving Servant, Talents and Sheep/Goats. He meant it. Good works aren't optional.
4. In the parable of the True Vine, there are branches who are IN Christ. They are united to Him. Yet some of those branches do not produce fruit. They do not do good works. So what happens to them? The angels come and cut those branches off and throw them into hell. Those branches are IN Christ, they are connected to Him. So they are saved, yet if they don't produce fruit, they will be thrown into hell.
5. St Paul actually says that he is making up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. So yes, we can add to His perfect sacrifice.
Shucks, it took you so long to answer, I thought I had you stumped! I suppose you were preparing your next post -
Romans 11:5-6
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
We continue in His kindness by producing fruit, since we are the branches. The fruit of good works.
Scripture doesn't say "faith will be evidenced by works". Those are your words that you're trying to add to the letter of James. James actually says that we are NOT saved by faith alone.
And the thief on the cross actually did do good works. The Good Thief:
1. Rebuked a sinner
2. Publicly proclaimed the kingship of Christ
3. Confessed his sins to God and accepted his just punishment, uniting his suffering to Christ
4. Comforted Our Lord in His most painful hours.
You would be lucky if you could do those good works.
Jesus didn't go to Heaven that day. He didn't go to Heaven until 40 days after Easter. That "day" Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom and preached to the souls in prison. That is where the Good Thief went that day. He was part of the Old Covenant which is not an option for anyone today. Today you must accept the New Covenant
If you read carefully, you'll see I said James states, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20 & 26)
The next part was perhaps an imperfect paraphrase. "I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18) was what I put into my own words "Faith will be evidenced by works".
I am not skilled to quibble with you over Christ's destination on the day of the crucifixion and you make good points about the good thief's works, but you had no answer to my Ephesians quote.
Isaiah says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. You may cling to your works, I had rather trust in the completed work of Christ. Sola Fide! And still if we have faith in Him, we want to please Him and to do the works He has prepared for us to do (Ephesians 2:10) Can we both be correct?
Your Ephesians quote is answered by verse 10 which you mentioned here. But you don't ask the relevant question. What happens to the person who doesn't walk in the good works of God? (Read the parable of the True Vine for the answer)
And you are categorically wrong about what Isaiah says. He does NOT say all our righteousness are as filthy rags. Your pastor was wrong about that. Isaiah is speaking to apostate Israel, and only them. The good works and works of the Law (those are not the same thing) that apostate Israel was performing were the filthy rags he was talking about. Those works were like filthy rags BECAUSE Israel had apostatized and turned away from God. Isaiah did NOT say all good works are filthy rags. God Himself praises good works. Your interpretation of Isaiah is objectively wrong.
Faith alone (sola fide) is explicitly and directly condemned by Scripture. So don't try to claim that you follow the Bible when you directly contradict Scripture.
The New Covenant, like ALL covenants with God, have conditions and requirements that we must uphold. You must obey and love God if you want to be saved, and so faith alone CANNOT be true.
yet we know that a person is not justified[b] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Galatians 2:21)
We are saved through faith. The good works follow because we are His. Some who call Him Lord will be told "I never knew you". Are we (Catholics and Protestants) not on the same side? We are living in desperately evil times. Let us not fall prey to the division spread by the evil one.
Galatians is talking about works of the Law (the Old Covenant liturgical & ceremonial offerings/sacrifices). It's not talking about good works.
Those are two entirely different things. Paul is telling the Galatians that the Old Covenant does not save.
And notice that Paul does NOT say that we are saved through faith alone. You are trying to add a word to Scripture that isn't there. Faith alone is directly and explicitly condemned by Scripture. You need to accept this fact. Faith alone is false.
Thank you for the prep for Mass tomorrow 🙏 for a good sermon.
Debate is not my strong suit. I will have one last go at this. Just as God did not "cut" the covenant with Abram (before the name change) in Genesis 12, He does not covenant with us for salvation. Abram cut the animals in two, but God Himself passed through the pieces, stating thereby that He would bear the punishment if the covenant were broken. Romans 4: 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Christ entered the Holy of Holies on our behalf, He said "It is finished". In the eyes of God we are holy, justified and righteous because of Christ's atonement. Nothing else is lacking. If good works could earn salvation, why did Christ have to suffer an excruciating death?
Now with all that being said . . . the good tree produces good fruit, not because it wants to become a good tree, but because it is a good tree. Because God is God, and we are not, we believe that our salvation rests on the perfect work of Christ, and we work as if it depends on us. How can we (being what we are) add anything to His perfect sacrifice? His Spirit works mightily within us to transform us into His image.
1. No worries on your or my ability to debate. Trust isn't dependent upon debate. It remains true even if we lose a debate.
2. God absolutely does covenant with us for our salvation. That's what the New Covenant is. That's why the New Covenant is the Blood of Christ.
3. No one says that works will save us. What we are saying is that good works are one of the conditions we must fulfill in the New Covenant that Christ offers to us. They aren't optional and anyone who wishes to be saved, must perform good works. Christ wasn't joking in the parables of the True Vine, Unforgiving Servant, Talents and Sheep/Goats. He meant it. Good works aren't optional.
4. In the parable of the True Vine, there are branches who are IN Christ. They are united to Him. Yet some of those branches do not produce fruit. They do not do good works. So what happens to them? The angels come and cut those branches off and throw them into hell. Those branches are IN Christ, they are connected to Him. So they are saved, yet if they don't produce fruit, they will be thrown into hell.
5. St Paul actually says that he is making up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. So yes, we can add to His perfect sacrifice.
Shucks, it took you so long to answer, I thought I had you stumped! I suppose you were preparing your next post -
Romans 11:5-6
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Keep reading.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
We continue in His kindness by producing fruit, since we are the branches. The fruit of good works.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast
Do we suffer in this life? Even unbelievers suffer in this fallen world.
James states faith without works is dead. Faith will be evidenced by works.
Salvation is the gift of God through the faith that He gives
The thief on the cross had no time for any works. Today you will be with me in paradise
Scripture doesn't say "faith will be evidenced by works". Those are your words that you're trying to add to the letter of James. James actually says that we are NOT saved by faith alone.
And the thief on the cross actually did do good works. The Good Thief:
1. Rebuked a sinner
2. Publicly proclaimed the kingship of Christ
3. Confessed his sins to God and accepted his just punishment, uniting his suffering to Christ
4. Comforted Our Lord in His most painful hours.
You would be lucky if you could do those good works.
Jesus didn't go to Heaven that day. He didn't go to Heaven until 40 days after Easter. That "day" Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom and preached to the souls in prison. That is where the Good Thief went that day. He was part of the Old Covenant which is not an option for anyone today. Today you must accept the New Covenant
If you read carefully, you'll see I said James states, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20 & 26)
The next part was perhaps an imperfect paraphrase. "I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18) was what I put into my own words "Faith will be evidenced by works".
I am not skilled to quibble with you over Christ's destination on the day of the crucifixion and you make good points about the good thief's works, but you had no answer to my Ephesians quote.
Isaiah says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. You may cling to your works, I had rather trust in the completed work of Christ. Sola Fide! And still if we have faith in Him, we want to please Him and to do the works He has prepared for us to do (Ephesians 2:10) Can we both be correct?
Your Ephesians quote is answered by verse 10 which you mentioned here. But you don't ask the relevant question. What happens to the person who doesn't walk in the good works of God? (Read the parable of the True Vine for the answer)
And you are categorically wrong about what Isaiah says. He does NOT say all our righteousness are as filthy rags. Your pastor was wrong about that. Isaiah is speaking to apostate Israel, and only them. The good works and works of the Law (those are not the same thing) that apostate Israel was performing were the filthy rags he was talking about. Those works were like filthy rags BECAUSE Israel had apostatized and turned away from God. Isaiah did NOT say all good works are filthy rags. God Himself praises good works. Your interpretation of Isaiah is objectively wrong.
Faith alone (sola fide) is explicitly and directly condemned by Scripture. So don't try to claim that you follow the Bible when you directly contradict Scripture.
The New Covenant, like ALL covenants with God, have conditions and requirements that we must uphold. You must obey and love God if you want to be saved, and so faith alone CANNOT be true.
yet we know that a person is not justified[b] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Galatians 2:21)
We are saved through faith. The good works follow because we are His. Some who call Him Lord will be told "I never knew you". Are we (Catholics and Protestants) not on the same side? We are living in desperately evil times. Let us not fall prey to the division spread by the evil one.
Galatians is talking about works of the Law (the Old Covenant liturgical & ceremonial offerings/sacrifices). It's not talking about good works.
Those are two entirely different things. Paul is telling the Galatians that the Old Covenant does not save.
And notice that Paul does NOT say that we are saved through faith alone. You are trying to add a word to Scripture that isn't there. Faith alone is directly and explicitly condemned by Scripture. You need to accept this fact. Faith alone is false.